This article is from a series I have been writing called “My thoughts on singleness (a series). . .” If you like, please CLICK HERE to read the previous articles.
A few years ago, a female friend of mine was struggling with the prospect of dating Christian men. She was new to faith and had dated much prior to becoming a Christian. She was struggling with some aspects of the culture of Christian men.
Though I have shortened and taken out some of the personal content, I wanted to post our dialogue on a rather important issue. I hope you will find this helpful.
The first part is an abbreviated version of her email to me. It is followed by a similarly abbreviated form of my response. I know what I am saying will be controversial on many fronts. Again, I do not pretend to be an expert in this area, but just a guy trying to bring his faith to bear in all areas of life. This area of singleness is just one of them.
Dear John,
I’ve been writing an e-mail to you, in my mind, for weeks, now. Here it is.
Do you know I’ve only ever dated non-Christians? (remembering that I’ve only been actively seeking God for the past year) I can see that dating Christian men is a whole different ball game, to use a metaphor you’d like. 😉
Have been bumping up against the notion of automatically ruling a man out because he’s not a Christian, yet have also seen, through observing couples at church and talking to pastor, how incredibly intimate and fulfilling it could be to share yourself, share your time, share your heart, with someone who puts God at the center of their life, as well. That being said, Christian men, speaking in generalities, can sometimes seem, demasculinized. They don’t walk with bold, Godly confidence in the “romantic” spheres of their life. Why?
For now,
A
Hey A,
. . . Don’t give up on dating believers. There are some issues with us, but give some of your church guys a chance. Here are some thoughts:
Christian guys, I have found, are too passive. No doubt about that. I do think you can attribute this to a few things. First, the carnage of past sin. Many of us did have “another life” in which we made mistake after mistake with women. Sexual sin is so deceptive and so hurtful. I think many of us are just trying to avoid making past mistakes again, but the negative outworking can sometimes be passivity. Good motive, bad outworking.
Second, I think many of us feel a strong responsibility to protect the hearts of the women we are around. If a guy is walking with the Lord, women usually become attracted to them quite easily. This can lead to false expectations and unnecessary pain. Never fun having to hurt someone who you sincerely like and were never really interested in romantically in the first place.
Finally, we Christian men can just be sinfully passive. As a result of the fall, I am convinced that men and women will naturally gravitate towards roles that they were not meant to have. Men get lazy and weak and become scared to move out in faith in life and relationships. We become sissies in all of life (I’m including myself in this statement). This ticks me off because very few men, who are desperately needed, will actually be men and take the work of Christ’s kingdom expansion seriously. We would rather sit back and to borrow from Neil Postman, “amuse ourselves to death.” We will do anything except that which is meaningful and important.
However, non-Christian guys also have their issues in areas of passivity. First, they are addicted to self gratification. They might come out seeming romantic and kind, but in the end, without Christ, our ultimate goal is self-gratification. This was my case and, I am convinced, at the core of all outside of Christ.
Second, non-believing men will gravitate towards a utilitarian view of others/relationships. There are, of course, exceptions, but they are just that. . . exceptions This is similar to the first point, but a little different. If it works for me, I will stay in it, if not, I will bail.
If there is no moral center-point outside of yourself, then you will view yourself as the moral center-point. I believe firmly that unless your moral center is Christ, you will ultimately view others/relationships through the grid of utility. You don’t want this.
Finally, just as Christian men struggle with the sin of passivity, so do non-Christian men, but with a twist. . . they tend to be “aggressive-passive.” They are aggressive in a self-centered manner consistent with what I have already said. They generally have short-term goals in relationships, even if they can’t see this in themselves. This will usually work its way out by misappropriating sex and emotional manipulation. They are often passive, however, in the areas of genuine love and long-term leadership/purpose.
I have had and maintain many, many relationships with men, both Christian and non-Christian. In my experience, I do see these things. Often what can be seen as “romance” is just a man trying to fulfill his own utilitarian purposes through a relationship. Often times what appears to be passivity with Christian men is actually men trying to methodically “do the right thing” and put the interests of the woman above their own.
If a man is confidently and consistently pursuing a life with Christ in obedience and love, he will eventually be a good leader and romancer in a relationship. Find a Godly guy that is serving others, exercising personal discipline, has strong relationships with other MEN, and treats women honorably and don’t settle short of this.
Your Brother in Christ,
John
Epilogue: “A” is now married to a Godly man and doing very well in her faith and life (as far as I know). Not sure how much this email helped her in her own journey, but I know writing it built me up in my own thoughts in this area.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this!
(For the next post in this series on singleness, please go to The blessings and joy of singleness.)
From a lady’s perspective, I confirm the above to be true. This is the kind of a blog post one wants to print out and keep it for reference. You may not be an expert in this topic but I think your insights are too deep not to be put into a book some day…just think about it. I know everyone will agree with me.
You owe us two more blog posts in this series. Remember that you promised to write about the advantages of being single? 😀
Blessings!
Though I appreciate your affirmation, I’m still quite a ways from being able to write a book that people might actually want to read. Thanks for the confidence though!
Hopefully I will get to the final post next week. . .
P.S. I tried to reply to you on facebook, but your account seems to have disappeared!
I’m still convinced that you can write a book. 😀
Sorry about Facebook. I’m out for a few weeks. I’ll DM you my email address on Twitter in a few.
Thanks!
As far as musing about singleness, I am so glad I have come across such a well-spoken MAN-blogger. I sighed in total contentment at the end! 🙂
This is my favorite paragraph:
If a man is confidently and consistently pursuing a life with Christ in obedience and love, he will eventually be a good leader and romancer in a relationship. Find a Godly guy that is serving others, exercising personal discipline, has strong relationships with other MEN, and treats women honorably and don’t settle short of this.
The Epilogue was not bad, either. 🙂
I’m laughing, as there are very few of us around! A lot of my friends have fun picking on me about blogging. I’ll keep pushing forward though!
Thanks for your thoughts here. One of the benefits of being single for so long is that I have been able to process relationships with many, many of my friends. I really am convinced that one of, if not the best indicator of a man who will be a good husband is the depth and commitment he has to his male friends. Not always the case, but most of the time.
Thanks for reading and for your encouragement!
Well, I don’t have many friends, I mean close friends, but it works for me. Maybe it’s my fault, I keep finding fault with them (female friends especially)… 😛 I am such an angel and human friends keep disappointing me… lol, kidding, but
my best friend is my sister because I can trust her completely.
So, I definitely cannot mirror your conviction about commitment to male friends and good husband material when it comes to me and my female friends… 🙂
(deeply sighing) maybe that’s why men prefer to be single more and more today, because we are becoming such a weird lot, yes, I understand more than you think.
Lord knows, I don’t claim to understand women! I’m just talking about my thoughts regarding men in that comment. . .
Thanks a have a great day!
Great thoughts here, Gunter!! Your comment on guys having close male friends is a good one, but difficult to hash out. three of my closer friends all were married in the last two yrs, including me as you know! I found that several of us wanted our men to have more close relationships with other guys but they also wanted that for themselves. and these are, most definitely, godly men. It seems that male community is much harder to develop especially when compared with female community that seems to happen more quickly. For example my husband…he had several guy friends but not many who were strong believers.
Continued, He had to rely on his brother and dad for close Christian community. I really see the value in your opinion and I also see in life that men finding community might be getting more and more challenging !
Love and miss you,
Erin and Kevin
Great point. Maybe better a “rule of thumb” rather than something hard and fast.
Great hearing from you. . .we are long over-due to Skype!
Excellent advice to your friend, John! And your perspective/insight on the “why” behind the passive tendencies of some Christian men is much appreciated. I apologize in advance for the length of my “comment” but I’m home from work due to being under the weather and have a bit more time to process my thoughts on all this than usual. 🙂
This could also be a bit controversial but in my opinion, one of the reasons men have become increasingly passive is due in part to the women’s lib movement. The push from women to be treated equally as men has been so forceful that simply being seen as/treated as equal (which in and of itself isn’t a bad thing because God created men and women equally) isn’t enough anymore. Many women now feel they are superior and men are “less than” which is extremely harmful and leads to statements like “all men are pigs” or “I don’t need a man.” We’re even seeing it on TV where so many male characters (especially fathers) are shown as sissies and completely emasculated.
This isn’t to say there still isn’t personally responsibility needed on a godly man’s part to keep from sliding into laziness, weakness or fear like you mentioned. However, it does make it really difficult for a guy when merely opening a door for a woman nowadays could lead to him being treated with utter contempt. I truly feel for guys in that respect! I’ve heard it said that “a man can only take being treated like crap for so long…” and I think that is becoming more and more evident by some men just giving up when it comes to women. And I don’t blame them on one hand – brash, angry, domineering women scare the heck out of me too!
Proverbs evens says, “better to dwell on the corner of a rooftop than in a house with a contentious woman.” And unfortunately, there are a lot of contentious women out there these days. However, not all women are that way, just like not all men are passive. And I maintain that godly men (and women for that matter) must choose to live as God intended in spite of our previously bad experiences (and we’ve all had them!) and regardless of the culture. It’s hard on both sides and much prayer is needed as we all navigate our way through this.
The bigger issue for me personally has been exactly what you said *we* (as girls) should not settle for less than – which is finding a “godly guy that is serving others, exercising personal discipline, has strong relationships with other MEN, and treats women honorably” (awesome!). I’m still stuck on the “find a godly guy” part period, let alone the rest of what you mentioned (and I’ve dated a senior pastor and a worship leader both of whom, had some of the most ungodly habits and sin in their lives that you could possibly imagine). This is something I’ve just had to trust the Lord for and in the meantime work towards BEING the type of person I would want to BE WITH as I am in no way perfect or without struggles myself.
You’ve made really excellent points here and I hope your readership grows to include more single guys who I know would benefit greatly from your wisdom and your fantastic blog. It’s been so encouraging to me. I’ll try not to be so long-winded next time!
P.S. Just a little insider info on the “Lord knows, I don’t claim to understand women!” comment (which was hilarious by the way)…women don’t understand women either! 🙂
Wow, great “comment” or should I say post! So much here that I will only comment on a few aspects.
You have brought up some wonderful points which I have honestly not thought of. I stick mainly to the male perspective since, well, I’m a man. I have not thought a ton about your points on women, but they make sense.
Regarding the emasculation of men, I completely agree. It is amazing how lacking respectable, responsible, and likable men are just not represented in the arts today. You are exactly right. I have been trying to think of positive examples today. Nothing comes to mind. Phil Dunphy (Modern Family) comes to mind. I love his character, but he is a buffoon. Ron Swansen (Parks and Rec) is likable, but he is portrayed as out of touch with the world around him. Good point.
Again, thanks for you work here in adding to the article. . . your thoughts are always helpful and add a ton!
I watched a documentary last week on men portrayed in media over the last fifty years, even secular opinion agreed with the thoughts in this post, really interesting. also I lovvve those tv characters!!
Thanks Erin…what was the documentary? Would love to download it.
Lots of interesting facts and comments to think about. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing. It is easy to get stuck in my own little world. So it’s a nice break to read about someone else’s. enjoy some asia for me 🙂
Thanks Melody! We are way overdue a time of getting the old gang back together for a meal. Let’s try to make that happy in 2013. . .
Sounds good. Just let me know when you are in town.
If I might add some to what Amy said because had I written sooner, I would have voiced several of the same thoughts.
I have a friend who says “Everything echoes Eden”. When we look at Adam and Eve in the garden, God gives us such a beautiful look at his intended Creation and the fallen creation. In His intended creation we see man in perfect submission and in perfect relationship with Creator, creation and community (Eve). However, in their disobedience we see pride, passivity and pointing fingers. Call me crazy and maybe controversial, but I think this issue of passivity goes back to the moment when Adam said nothing while standing next to Eve at the temptation. And the emasculation of man by woman ( although heightened since women’s lib) began further back at the curse, when God told Eve “your desire shall be for your husband.” Meaning… “Women no longer willingly follow their husband’s leadership, instead they desire to usurp him. They long to be in charge. To be godly, to live as she was intended, a women must put off her desire to lead and put on a submissive attitude” John Piper.
No one reading this knows me and might really understand what I mean, so I am prepared to be misunderstood or debated. This is both the bad and the good of entering online conversations.
Basically what I want to say is we’re out of whack… All of us… Men and women. I don’t say that as an excuse. Just a truth we have to deal with as Believers. Thankfully, when we submit to Christ, we no longer have to be slaves to our sinful nature. But rather become slaves to Christ. we no longer HAVE to sin. and we become restored to once again live reflect more and more how we were first intended to live…glorifying God in our relationship with our Creator, His creation and the community around us.
This is ongoing transformation does not come quickly or easily. And it does not come from living life alone. So I am forever grateful for my real community and this digital community in which to share, challenge, grow and eventually change. Keep these conversations coming! Btw… I must admit I am so curious why you are the only man to participate in this thread. Have you ‘nailed’ the man’s perspective and therefore there is nothing for the brothers to add?
Hey Alexis. . . thanks, as always, for your insight and thoughts! Very strong comments. Thanks a ton!
I read the book “Silence of Adam” by Larry Crab a few years ago. He talks much about what you are talking about here. It really was an “ah ha” moment for me in reading that. We (men) do tend to shrink into passivity and women file our absence in this. It’s rough.
I’m going to sign off tonight (my time is about 10pm), as I have been on the road all day and am quite tired. However, I did want to get this posted and say a “thanks” for your thoughts and for taking the time to post.
I do know there are many single guys reading, but we will see if they choose to jump into the comments fray or not!
Thanks again, and have a great day!
I have been meditating on “we no longer HAVE to sin” for weeks now. GREAT stuff Alexis!! 🙂
Have you really honestly seen, that non-christan men are mainly utilitarian, not respecting women etc? My personal experience has been the opposite: non-christian men have respected me and honored me and been much more honest with me, than Christian men. There are some christian men out there, whom i deeply respect though and think they have always been treating me with honor. But this difference might come from my context. There is so much more women (and many, many single women) in the churches than men in Estonia, so men have a lot of choice and therefore the whole situation becomes twisted (as much as i understand, men should be “hunting” women not vice versa).
About passivity. I don’t think, there is such a thing. If a man is really interested, he is ready to do anything to get the attention of this special women no matter whether he is a christian or not. This is one of the main lessons i have learned about relationship and i’ve experienced both sides of this … And i really, really appreciate, your comprehensive explanations about the processes, that might be interpreted as passivity. This makes me think of christian men way better, than i did before and hopefully helps to avoid misunderstandings.
Good Stuff! Appreciate and noted .”..Find a Godly guy that is serving others, exercising personal discipline, has strong relationships with other MEN, and treats women honorably and don’t settle short of this.” –
Just found your blog through my friend Jenn M, whom teaches in China. Keep writing!
Tammie, I really appreciate your reading and letting me know you have enjoyed it. Jenn’s a good girl and a great teacher to some of my closest friends’ children!
Thanks for writing this article. I like how it addressed the way men react or how they are these days. It’s very disappointing in some ways…but there is always Hope that God will send the right person at the right time..
I actually fyi copied what you said here,
“If a man is confidently and consistently pursuing a life with Christ in obedience and love, he will eventually be a good leader and romancer in a relationship. Find a Godly guy that is serving others, exercising personal discipline, has strong relationships with other MEN, and treats women honorably and don’t settle short of this.”
on my desktop to remind myself of what I need to see in a potential guy. Hope you don’t mind..
Thanks!
C.Ho
Hahaha. . . I appreciate your kind words and it is a huge compliment that you find this helpful, Carmen.
Yes, it is disappointing, but also hopeful in that people ARE out there like this. Thankfully God truly is sovereign and good. We can trust in Him and He carries us even when we don’t.
Thanks again for all of your thoughts on the blog today. Very fun and encouraging to read. – John